I have stirred up quite a bit of discussion both here on the blog and on Facebook with my last post. People think I am over-reacting. That I should understand and be willing to come up with the proper ID or whatever is demanded before I am allowed to vote. These laws are there to prevent voter fraud so I should just go along with them.
In Canada, Harry Neufeld, Retired Chief Electoral Officer for British Columbia, was commissioned by Elections Canada to review the problem of non-compliance with the rules in one Toronto riding after a challenge was made by the Liberal Party in 2011. That case ended up at the Supreme Court who rejected the case. In his study, Neufeld determined that there have been "no more more that a handful" of cases of voter fraud in Canada both provincially and federally.
Neufeld determined that of this "handful" of alleged cases the vast majority were the result of mistakes by election officials and that there had been little or no actual fraud. He says the errors were the result of "complexity, recruitment of election officers, training and the updating of voter lists. At no time did he suggest ineligible voters were deliberately trying to cast illegal ballots.
Neufeld recommended that the Voter Information Cards should be allowed as valid pieces of identification (as they traditionally have been in many areas of Canada) and that the entire voting process should be simplified. He also recommended that election officials should be better trained to avoid irregularities in the future. He stated that there were many 'Urban Myths' about busloads of voters being taken from riding to riding to illegally vote and of nefarious individuals scooping up voter information cards from apartment blocks and using them to orchestrate illegal voting. All examples of these schemes turned out to be false.
Neufeld feared that if Bill C-23 passed (it did) and made it more difficult to vote by special ballot, voting by mail or registering on voting day as well as by the imposition of more and more identification requirements people would get very angry and there would be more and more court challenges.
Neufeld said he fears the Conservatives efforts to prevent voter fraud will end up disenfranchising people who have trouble producing identification with with proof of their address - primarily students, the poor and aboriginals. People with the democratic right to vote.
Just think of it. You go to vote, carrying the same ID you always have, find a parking spot, stand in line, argue with an election official and are turned away. What do you do? Drive home, find a utilities bill or some other allowable ID, drive back to the poll, stand in line and eventually cast your ballot? Or do you just say the hell with it. In all likelihood you would not have time anyway as most people vote in the last hour or so that the polls are open. You will have lost your right to vote.
And it is not only you. There will be thousands just like you in Canada that are turned away from the ballot box for no reason. There is no voter fraud problem!
Read the article here.
We've been in Mazatlan almost two weeks.
1 hour ago
Much better. :)
ReplyDeleteI agree that this bill is scary and that it's definitely a sneaky attempt by the Conservatives to rig the election. I also agree that outrage is appropriate and not an over reaction. The thing is that Canadians in general just don't make an effort to get properly informed, and this is what the Conservatives are exploiting. The answer to that is posts like these that clarify what's going on and explain what you need to do to make sure you can vote. If Elections Canada can't spread the word, we, the people, sure can.
In America today, a photo ID is required to buy beer or cigarettes, get married, get on an airplane, or enter the Department of Justice to meet with Eric Holder. Yet the left gets up in arms when you suggest it should be required to vote. Why do you need to show an ID to see Eric Holder but not to vote?
ReplyDelete"Twelve thousand noncitizens registered to vote in Colorado; apparently 5,000 of those voted in 2010. A recent report in North Carolina by James O'Keefe's Project Veritas (of ACORN-undercover expose` fame) compared records of registered voters to prospective jurors disqualified due to noncitizenship, but who then voted in North Carolina in 2010. The State of Florida is suing the Department of Homeland Security to obtain a list of noncitizens in order to purge the state's voter rolls before the 2012 election, and was just sued in return by the Barack Obama-Eric Holder Department of Justice with a lawsuit for purging its rolls, which is required by federal law."
"Despite the steady reports of election fraud cases, updated regularly on the Republican National Lawyers Association "Vote Fraud Map," there persists a left-wing, Democratic Party-led drumbeat of "vote fraud deniers," who ignore the cases and complain loudly that there is no vote fraud."
This from an article by Cleta Mitchell of the Republican National Lawyers Association.
Don, all I know about US voting issues is what I read. FL attempted to purge what? 180,000 voters from the voters list in 2012. This number was reduced to 6,000 and preliminary investigation showed 50 (going by memory here) to actually be ineligible to vote. Please note here - these are not people who actually walked into a polling station and asked for a ballot, they are people whose names appeared on the voters list. Florida's efforts was seen as an attempt to simply remove thousands of non-whites from the voters list and the attempt failed.
DeleteAnother big problem you have in the states is the lack of a way to compare lists of voters to lists of citizens apparently because no such list exists, As a result, any claims like those your republican lawyer claims for Colorado are simply wild guesses and removing thousands from the voters list on the basis of these wild guesses would surely also remove many actual, eligible citizens. There is no way to check. This issue was addressed here: "Why is there no national registry of American citizens that state and local election officials could check to see if someone is eligible to vote? Solicitor General Donald Verrilli confirmed in the oral argument before the Supreme Court on the Arizona immigration law that “there is no reliable way in the (DHS) database to verify that you are a citizen, unless you are in the passport database.”Is the attempt to remove non-citizens from the list of voters simply impossible – due to lack of accurate data on citizen status, or is it possible to do, but will have the side effect of inadvertently striking some citizens from the rolls?"
This is the problem you have in the US. And if it is impossible to match voters list against citizen lists then it is also difficult to speculate how many non-citizens voted. I can see a non citizen's name getting onto a voters list but I cannot imagine a non-citizen actually entering a polling station and attempting to vote, To do so would be to expose themselves to discovery and to severe legal consequences, including deportation. Severe consequences compared to what they have to gain by voting. However, like I say, I am no expert on American voting rules and legislation..
“In her largely fictitious “Setting the record straight on voter ID laws,” Ms. Mitchell goes to great lengths to twist the truth in the vain hope of highlighting a problem that doesn’t exist: mass voter fraud from double voting and false registration.
DeleteTo buttress her call for new voter ID laws, Ms. Mitchell refers to several flawed examples. For example, she says a Milwaukee Police Department report found an “illegal organized attempt to influence the outcome of elections” in 2004. In truth, the report cites alleged voter fraud by 16 individuals technically ineligible to cast votes, which the authors conclude could potentially have been the “proverbial ‘tip of the iceberg’ as it relates to an illegal organized attempt to influence the outcome of an election in the state of Wisconsin.” But the report expressly disavows the idea of mass fraud, stating, “Investigators make no claim that thousands of fraudulent ballots were cast in Wisconsin …” PolitiFact Wisconsin previously has debunked this fraud claim, observing that police investigators found almost no evidence of double voting and invalid addresses in the 2004 election.
Ms. Mitchell also misstates the situation in Colorado. Republican Secretary of State Scott Gessler, a supporter of voter ID legislation, testified before Congress that 5,000 illegals may have voted in the 2010 Senate race. But his spokesperson later “clarified” the secretary’s remarks, noting all they could really say was that they were “nearly certain that 106 individuals [were] improperly registered to vote.”
The reference to New Mexico is similarly flawed. Republican Secretary of State Diana Duran, in a likely effort to bolster a voter ID bill, turned over for investigation an eye-popping 64,000 cases of alleged voter fraud. But rather than rampant fraud, experts and state election officials note the problems more likely stem from data entry errors and list management complications. Even Secretary Duran’s office conceded the likelihood of clerical mistakes.
Finally, Ms. Mitchell cites a study by Jeffrey Milyo of the University of Missouri purportedly showing voter ID laws have no effect on voter turnout for minority, poor and senior citizens despite ample evidence to the contrary. Mr. Milyo’s report is part of a long pattern of partisan research manufactured for political gain. The grant money for the study came from a former Bush/Cheney ’04 campaign counsel, Mark F. “Thor” Hearne, a Republican Party operative pushing voter ID laws across the country and the founder of an organization instrumental in enacting the very voter ID law Mr. Milyo considered.”
- Citizens For Responsibility and Ethics
The Kerry election: I was a poll watcher for the Democrats in a 90% black district, I was there to see that those who had the right to vote could cast a honest ballot. The Republican watcher had some funny ideas but I was able to convince him that should he do as he was instructed by his handlers, the law of the land might see fit to jail him because we are all responsible for our deeds no matter our instruction and good intentions. All went smoothly. It was a cold, all day rain day that November Day, everyone who came to my polling station got in out of the rain as the lines were short because the Republican plan of contesting each voter failed at our polling place.
ReplyDeleteMid Afternoon I was asked to go to a white working class polling location where the Republican poll watcher was not letting anyone vote for one reason or another. I did am old fashioned 'John Wayne' entrance, banging the double doors open and making a 'whole room could hear it", " I understand someone here is not letting honest people vote". The Republican poll watcher in question was a church lady from my home township who I knew very well. She had a look of mortification on her face, she thought she was safe acting out so far from home. I went over to the polling workers and got the low down on my old neighbor's behavior, then had the talk about how it was a felony to interfere with the polls and how the poll workers were going to call the sheriff had I not put a stop to her shenanigans.
The lines waiting to vote at that polling station were 40 or 50 deep outside in a freezing rain-voter suppression works if you can get away with it.
I call BS. ;)
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PRYJqfcEe0
Seriously?! Faux News and the trio of twits? No spin there! ; )
DeleteLooks to me like he is making sure all goes well and is opening the door for elderly voters. It is a FOX News video so if he was bashing white voters over the head I am sure FOX would have filmed it so it is doubtful it happened. I would not find this intimidating at all and would offer him a 'Good Morning" and a 'Thank You', same as I would anyone who opened a door for me. Nothing like the intimidation I feel with guys with AK-47's hanging off their shoulders exercising their 'Open Carry' rights in a grocery store.
DeleteAre you guys for real? Did you not see the Black Panther standing there with a baton intimidating people walking in?
DeleteI guess I'm not surprised since you also thing there is no voter fraud.
Sheesh.
Think, not thing.
Deletehttps://youtu.be/DG6fhub9HDQ
ReplyDeleteI would think you'd vote for that guy Croft.
What more could we ask for! Look at all the money he would save us in airline tickets! ;)
DeleteDo people really believe that Canada and the U.S. are exempt from corruption? Please, we are humans. It's part of our humanness. Mexicans say the same thing, "those rotten politicians are so corrupt". Yet I remind them, those corrupt politicians and all contractors, service providers, and rotten government employees are all relatives, family members, and friends of each and everyone of us. 78 U,S. politicians have been sentenced for fraud and embezzlement in the last 10 years. Of course the big difference is that the U.S. doesn't like to use the dirty word, "corruption". It is what it is.
ReplyDeleteBut that corruption would never manifest itself at the polling place, now would it? ;-)
DeleteYou know, it might. Some day. But it hasn't happened yet, no one can show any evidence where it has. We must remain diligent but there is no need to take legitimate, legal voters off the voters list in some sort of weird 'pre-action' to the above thing that has not happened.
DeleteYou have yet to advance a voter integrity measure of any kind. No voter ID. No voter roll checks. Nothing. Allowing anyone who shows up to vote, to vote is not voter integrity. You would do your side a huge favor if you would advocate some form of voter integrity. Arguing so vociferously that absolutely nothing is needed would seem to many that you want to leave in place the opportunity for fraud. I Know you want it all without any compromise whatsoever and simply want to beat the other side into submission, but there are ways you could win this war if you would only try. If you truly want no voter ID, then advocate for fair and thorough roll checks. NO NO NO is not a good way to win this issue.
ReplyDeleteI am not saying that. What I am saying is to keep it reasonable. Not everyone has photo ID. You and I do but there are thousands who do not. When I voted last time I handed over my Voter Information Card which was mailed to my house. It had my name, address and polling station information on it. There was a sign saying other ID 'may' be required. If the poll worker had any suspicion that I may not be who I was or was attempting some other nefarious act, I was prepared but she was happy. She took the card, checked the list, asked me my name and address, ticked me off, had me sign the line beside my name and handed me my ballot.
DeleteI have been a poll watcher (scrutineer) for my party many, many times and I have never seen anyone try to commit fraud. If there is a 'mistake' it has been someone signing on the wrong line so at first glance it might look like someone has voted in someone else's name but closer examination has always shown the error. The signature matches a name above or below the line they signed and that line has a tick but no signature. A simple mistake. Voter information cards are collected and can be checked to confirm this. This is the integrity check.
On the other hand though, the phone calls made to our supporters telling them that voting day had been changed came from the Conservative Party or someone acting on their behalf. How do we know this? Because all the complaints to the Returning Officer came from other that Conservative supporters. They obviously took their support list and started phoning everyone who wasn't on it. And they are the only ones who have their own support list.
This action had the potential of far more severe consequences than someone signing the poll record on the wrong line. The Returning Officer called the Conservative HQ and shortly after the calls stopped. We were forced to drop everything and start phoning our supporters to correct the misinformation but obviously could not reach everyone. As it turned out, we won anyway.
Thinking back, my mother never had photo ID. She never had a drivers licence and never had a passport. She only ever traveled to the USA and in those days, you did not need a passport for that. I think when she got older she may have had a seniors bus pass that had her photo but I don't remember seeing that on the list of allowable forms of ID.
DeleteIf anyone had ever told her she could not vote, they would have heard about it.
But ANYONE, ANYONE can get a voter ID. If you've registered to vote then obviously you're able to obtain an ID. And if you can't then you shouldn't be trying to vote.
ReplyDeleteWe have a box we can tick on our income tax return and that serves as a request to be put on the voters list. Your tax return requires your Social Insurance Number which only citizens are given. If you are a Canadian citizen you are allowed to vote, even if you are in prison or out of the country. In the last two cases you must apply for a Special Ballot.
DeleteI am a Canadian who moved to bc several years ago. At the first General Election I turned up to vote having no proof of address and no voter card. I produced my Canadian Citizenship Certificate and was allowed to vote. I was absolutely amazed! I could have visited every riding on the Island - possibly more than once!
ReplyDeleteNo one knows how much fraud goes on if it is not detected!
Joanne, if you voted in every riding under the same name and signature on all the Special Ballot receipts you would end up in jail for a very long time. You were entitled to vote and you were allowed to.
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